You should be ashamed

Born Confuzed just did a post about homosexuality on her blog, and I was shocked and saddened to read some of the disgusting comments on there.

Disclaimer: this post is not about what the Qur’an/hadith say about homosexuality. This post is about homophobia and Muslims, and the way so many Muslims are so quick to judge and insult people who don’t agree with them/aren’t like them.

Homosexuality & Islam has always been a gray area for me.  Personally, I support homosexuality 100%. I don’t think it’s unnatural or anything like it.  From my homosexual friends I have come to the conclusion that it is not a choice, but that they are born that way.  Why would God create people who are gay and then tell them not to act on it? It’s so hard to understand that.

I love Coolred’s comment:

So acting on your homosexual tendencies is haram?

Why would God punish someone for being what they are….for being in love? God gave us the ability to love…but then will punish us for acting upon that love?

Do you think all gay people are just in it for the sex…they cant feel love, companionship, the desire to be wanted and loved by another person? The innate desire to have a family and not grow old alone?

Love is our greatest emotion…that is the greatest gift God gave us far as Im concerned and to then turn around and say…here is the gift of love…but the gift of choosing WHO you love…well thats not gonna happen. I leave that up to pure chance…and if you happen to fall in love with the wrong sex…well then feel my wrath…cause I love to punish people for what they have no control over.

People on here who find gay love disgusting…all that means is you find love disgusting…shame on you. Love is the only thing that keeps this world from faling into the abyss…we need more people to love each other rather than hate. As soon as the ratio of those who love becomes less than those who hate (and I feel thats pretty close right now) tips the wrong way…we are in a world of hurt.

And associating gay love with pedophiles and rapists…well that is truly the disgusting bit of this whole comment section.

It’s not just about suppressing their sexual desires. It means not being in love, getting married, growing old with someone.

I know many Muslims are going to say that we don’t understand everything God does. But that’s easy to say when you aren’t being told to suppress your feelings, emotions, desires, wants, and sexuality.

Whether you agree with homosexuality or not, why do people have such vehement, negative reactions? Why insult gay people? Why compare it to rape and incest? Why judge them at all? No one is asking you to be gay. If you really think it’s wrong then don’t do it. If you think it corrupts the community, then maybe you should tackle bigger issues, like the crazy high levels of domestic abuse in the Islamic world, female circumcision, gender inequality, etc.

Ugh. Homophobia pisses me off.


143 thoughts on “You should be ashamed

  1. I agree; whether or not we believe it’s permissible in Islam is our personal choice but to judge others and leave homophobic comments is really intolerant.

    I posted it because I was wondering what people thought of marrying a woman, which many men do to hide from society and which many muslims believe is the right path (I personally think it is awful to do this unless the woman knows beforehand, and then each to their own), but it dissolved into an argument in which gay people were even compared to paedophiles.

    • “I agree; whether or not we believe it’s permissible in Islam is our personal choice but to judge others and leave homophobic comments is really intolerant.”

      Totally agree!

      It’s sad that the comments were so disgusting.

  2. Lol…Så Allah created people who have urges to rape, and he has created people who have suicidal thoughts (borderline) do you ask yourself why he has created them that way? There is no gray area in islam when it comes to homosexuality. The evidence from the Quran and Imam Ali and the Prophet are so clear that you are either very ignorant in this case or blind. The people of Sodom och Gomorra, the people of Lot were deviants, who were homosexuals. The law in islam is so clear, that any gray area comes from your own inclination to try to excuse this sickness.
    Allah created many things to test us, and its up to us to show ourselves worthy by not falling for those desires.

    for instance, i have often had the chance to sleep with girls, easily and it was very very very tempting, but its a test like any other urge we have.
    I am really amazed that you can ask why would Allah create them homosexuals, and forget about why other things were created by Allah.
    According to sunniislam Allah created evil and good, do you go around and ask why he did that?
    Pedophiles have similar urges, they are created like that, do we allow them to be pedohpiles? Do we say its how Allah created them?

    Anyone who says its gray and anyone who tries to defend homosexuality is going against the Quran. i have seen your and your friends posts before about this issue and i can only say dont follow your whims, but follow what Allah has said.
    Maybe this religion isnt for you? many christians in the west have started to abandon the view that homosexuality is a sin and are accepting it, maybe that religion would suit you better?

    The Prophets hadiths are so many about this issue. When two gays were found none knew what to do, and ppl asked Imam Ali and he gave them a chance to give up this filthy habit, and the men refused, so they were killed (one story says they were thrown from a high building).
    I think the Prophet, the Quran, Imam Ali and the hadith books know a lot more about what Allah wishes, then you and your gay friends.

    No hard feelings, but i think you are a bit too westernnized for your own good lol.
    I would never participate in killing anyone, i have homosexual friends, but if they start a conversation about this matter, i will tell them as i told you, its a crime against Allah.
    And no man made law, no excuse will change that.

    “And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty.”[7:80–84

    There is no gray area at all…and may Allah guide us all 🙂

    • “Maybe this religion isnt for you? many christians in the west have started to abandon the view that homosexuality is a sin and are accepting it, maybe that religion would suit you better?”

      Homosexuality may be a sin, but attempting to drive Muslims out of Islam is a tremendous sin indeed, Bahlool. Each person thinks his or her interpretation of Islam is the one and only TRUE interpretation, which is how we come to have maniacs like the Taliban and al Shebab murdering fellow Muslims. Perhaps you should consult your Creator before suggesting someone leave Islam. Allah Yihdikh, ya Rab.

      Also, the post was not specifically debating whether or not homosexuality is acceptable, it was only that Muslims need to stop with the filthy, violent, UNISLAMIC comments every time the issue comes up. Even if you hate what someone does, the one and only way to behave as a Muslim is with compassion, not with hate and cursing and foul names.

      Allah Yihdikh.

      • I feel like finally someone understood what I was trying to say with this post.

        It wasn’t about whether homosexuality is allowed in Islam or not – that’s a different debate.

        It was about how disturbing some of the criticisms homosexuals are receiving are.

        “Even if you hate what someone does, the one and only way to behave as a Muslim is with compassion, not with hate and cursing and foul names.”


  3. Abu Bakr, condemned a homosexual to be buried beneath the debris of a wall, and prescribed burning alive as the penalty for all those guilty of such practices.)[14] In this respect he was followed by Abd Allah bin al-Zubayr and Hisham bin Abd al-Malik. For his part, All bin Abi Talib ordered the stoning of a luti and had another thrown head-first from the top of a minaret; according to Ibn Abbas, this last punishment must be followed by stoning. Abd Allah bin Umar went a step beyond the condemnation by the Prophet, reckoning that these people would be resurrected in the form of monkeys and pigs

    Are you and your gay friends more knowledgble then these men who were the Sahabas of the holy Prophet? Why would they condemn someone to death if they lived with the prohphet and were seeing a gray area?

    • I wrote the disclaimer just for you Bahlool, LOL. Seriously, I KNEW you would comment and say stuff like this, which is why I explicitly said this post is not about the Qur’an/hadith.
      It’s an area I’m struggling with and haven’t studied in detail so I don’t have strong conclusions.

      “Maybe this religion isnt for you? many christians in the west have started to abandon the view that homosexuality is a sin and are accepting it, maybe that religion would suit you better?”

      Seriously? These kinds of comments are the problem with many Muslims today. Who are YOU to say who should be Muslim and who shouldn’t? I find such statements very offensive and yet funny at the same time cause it’s so childish and so against what I think a Muslim should be saying.
      Why couldn’t you just express your view and leave it there? Why did you have to question MY Islam? Suggest that I choose another religion?

    • “Are you and your gay friends more knowledgble then these men who were the Sahabas of the holy Prophet?”

      Were these men flesh and blood? If they were, then my answer is yes, it is quite possible that they did not know everything, even if they were the Sahabas of the Prophet—that others may know more than them. If they knew everything there is to know, they are all Gods.

      Why would they condemn someone to death if they lived with the prohphet and were seeing a gray area?

      Why? Just because they lived with the prophet, that did not mean that they could do now wrong. As long as they were flesh and blood, then they were not immune from making mistakes. After all, you know that famous line: Nobody is perfect.

      • Dear Cornelius,

        I was just reading your comments and simply had to reply. I so agree and I am pleased to see others to adopt this critical perspective.
        Today divinity is not limited to Allah, but to the messenger, his companions, their relatives, their neighbours – sheesh where does it end.

        Men(and women) of flesh and blood can not ever been deemed perfect creatures. That is afterall the main difference between Allah and humans. See where blind faith will take you?

        Humans err. Thats the bottomline and it doesn’t matter whether you are a companion, relative or other.

        Thanks for your contribution.

  4. Gay-hate is easy pious points, that’s why.

    The thing is, “gay” is a western thing – this concept that same sex people live together, adopt children and so on and so forth. In many many of the Muslim countries, men will have sex with men and never ever consider themselves to be gay. Its an accepted norm…a part of culture, a sin, an act that exists alone, solitary.

    But gay, as in “we are a same sex couple and we are going to live like this” is something different.

    • “Gay-hate is easy pious points, that’s why.”

      Exactly! And mixed with this is the fact that Arab culture is extremely homophobic.

      I agree to an extent, but I also think there are many Arab men who are gay in the sense that they want to be with men in a relationship, not just for sex.

      • *Some* Arab cultures are extremely homophobic might be a better way to put it. The North African countries, in particular, sure. However, in Oman, it’s well-known and widely accepted that many, many men have homosexual relationships and no one bats an eyelid about it. In fact, that’s one of the generalizations made about Omani men by *other* Arabs : ). Or take, for instance, Lebanon, which has a very active, very open gay community,not that everyone approves, obviously, but it’s there.

        Muslims might not like to admit it, but Arabs have a long and florid history of homosexuality. It’s not some “Western perversion,” as many would have it.

        • Welcome to the blog Ayah!

          Wow, that is very interesting – I didn’t know that about Oman. It’s so true about Lebanon – there is a pretty open gay scene there.

          Like you said, in the past Arabs have often been very tolerant of homosexuality.

          • Thanks, I decided it was time to stop lurking.

            Yeah, the thing with Omanis is so much taken for granted, no one even brings it up (except the occasional Yemeni neighbor, hehehe). I’ve actually argued that the virulent homophobia we see now (far harsher than the mild distaste of past centuries) is actually the product of *Western* influence. That always gets an awesome response ((looks mischievous)).

    • Western?

      There are gays living in Muslim countries too. And they are usually married with kids, which is why the surrounding society, friends and family can’t tell.

      Wives may find out or have suspicion but seeing as divorce has been made into a taboo, usually many will continue the “marriage”.

      The gays in Muslim societies usually get their desires fullfilled while abroad (if so privileged) or in the secret underground community. Meet ups in the dark at public parks or carparks is not unknown. Neither is the fact that adult men, aged, living with a boy child or teenage boy. People usually know what that means but stay clear of it.

      So “gay” is not western. The only difference is that the west has adopted the Gays as normal humans with equal rights as others. ´

      And mind you, prophet Lot, used to live in the middleeast, and his community consisted mainly of men who liked to sleep with men. This was why Lot was warned by Allah. So unless you are suggesting Lots people visited the West which had its own issues at the time for inspiration to become “gay”, that is not really true. Gay is unuiversal.

      I can’t comment whether it is natural, wrong, right, unnatural, as I generally don’t think it is up to us to judge others. Live and let be. 4 simple words but something the ummah fails at miserably.

  5. Good post is what I think about homosexuality in our religion of Islam:

    ‘I don’t agree with it because I think people are made to be homosexual.
    Secondly,the argument that man are born with it I don’t know how is this possible so I would not go in to that,but..
    In Islam,Allah swt said that He will forgive all sins with the exception of shirk,so
    if someone committed homosexual act and he repents, Allah swt will forgive him.But having said that,this does not make it legal in Islam,but it gives a hope of forgiveness to those who commit such indecent acts,and I should not judge them.
    I don’t know any homosexual,never meet one..but this is what I think about it so far..’

  6. Hehehe…well,they will most likely condem us to death:D
    Don’t worry you are on the right path dear,and no one should suggest to you what religion should you choose for your self,no one.
    I am glad that you rise up this topic,as it is one of those that Muslims don’t talk about it,but they know that it exist in the community and rather keep it stum,which is bad in my opinion.

  7. I belive I made some “homophobic comments”. Id just like to clarify that I’m not Homophobic, I don’t HATE homosexual people for who they are, I hate what they do. Theres a huge difference. Homosexual people are not bad people but the acts they do are against God’s rules. Whether it is natural or not, The Qur’an forbids homosexuality. Why is acting on Homosexual tendencies Haram? Because it’s against God’s wishes. If one wants to act against God’s wishes then they should be prepared to hear the truth from people who read religious texts and know the veiw on homosexuality. God speaks in The Qur’an, Torah, and Bible forbidding Homosexuality. To look at it from a religious point of view, Homosexuality is not going to please God. If a person is born with Homosexual feelings that they cant control, they can overcome them because it’s not their fault for feeling that way but acting on it would be.

    Allah swt would never punish a person for having a feeling that they didnt act upon knowing the act is Haram.

    The Homosexual community (if they want to adhere to God’s rules) should know that there are other solutions to their feelings that they were born with. BY the way, I dont belive that they are born that way, Physically they are born to be with the oppisate sex and nobody can argue that so in that stance its not Physically natural to be with the same sex. If we look at emotional side of things, they probably feel love for the same sex but if they they really belive that love has nothing to do with gender and that you can fall in love with the same gender then you can also fall in love with the oppisate. Put that with the way the God created their body and you can see that clearly its against nature.

    • Other solutions? Like what? Lifelong repression? Sarah can you fall in love with the same gender? No right? Yet you think the easy solution is gay people falling in love with the opposite sex???

    • ” BY the way, I dont belive that they are born that way.”

      It’s easy for you to say that but how would you know since you aren’t gay?

      Most gay people say that it is NOT a choice.

      Who are you to say they are lying?

  8. I had written part of a comment and pressed on something. Don’t know if the part was sent for moderation or just deleted. Anyway, I will try again!

    It’s crazy how much hate gays get from so many Muslims! It’s crazy how much hate SO MANY different types of people get from Muslims! I’m in a very bad place right now with Islam because of what so many Muslims are. I can try and try to convince myself that it’s not Islam, that Islam is more than its followers and that it has an undeniable truth that is misunderstood by the vast majority of its followers but it’s a pretty crazy and “out there” idea, isn’t it? A religion that has nothing to do with its followers because they don’t understand it and I do! Ridiculous thought really but I’ve tried so hard to accept it that I almost have!

    Anyway, for me it’s clear that a homosexual having random sex (with same-sex partners) is not any different a sin than a heterosexual having random sex (with opposite-sex partners). Inside myself I strongly feel that a homosexual couple being exclusive to each other and living in love and respect for each other and taking care of children is something that is not any different than a heterosexual couple doing this same thing. A homosexual couple could never conceive and so for me, they are facing the same problems as an infertile heterosexual couple. Same questions of whether or not it’s OK in Islam to have in-vitro and use a random sperm sample and adopt a child as your own and all these things.

    I feel disgusted about how extreme Muslim’s feelings can be toward people they don’t agree with.

    Bahlool, you make me laugh every time you post. One post on polygamy you kept mentioning how many other women you’ve had after you to marry you, now it’s so many women who have wanted to sleep with you. Get over yourself!

    • “It’s crazy how much hate SO MANY different types of people get from Muslims! I’m in a very bad place right now with Islam because of what so many Muslims are.”

      I know exactly how you feel. I’ve been in that bad place so many times. I don’t think what you suggested is a crazy idea. I really do think many Muslims have become obsessed with the small, outer details of Islam, forgetting the more important inner aspects. Islam has become what Muslims always criticize Christianity for: dominated and determined by a class of scholars/priests. This has made people get lazy and stop thinking.

  9. First off, great post Cairo! For many reasons (which I won’t get into here) I have concerns about the “Islamic” view of homosexuality – I simply don’t believe God created gay people just to watch everyone have fits! And for those commentators comparing desires of homosexuals to those of pedophiles… CONSENSUAL SEX BETWEEN ADULTS IS NOT THE SAME AS RAPING/MOLESTING CHILDREN! PERIOD!

    Moving on, the scientific community is pretty solid in saying that homosexuality is not a choice. There’s an adorable video on it here:

    Also, there was a very interesting story on NPR about so-called “Late-Life Lesbians”, or women who are straight all their lives and then fall for another woman. Part of the article: “…for some of these women, they authentically did not feel attracted to women before they met one particular woman that they completely fell in love with.” So it is possible that in some cases, it is love, not lust, that dictates same-sex attraction. I can’t believe that is the sort of thing God would forbid.


      Couldn’t agree more! I just don’t get people who link the two!

      Like I said, I’m still having trouble understanding how gay Muslims are supposed to live their lives. It’s just confusing 😦 It’s pretty clear that Islam forbids it – but then what?

  10. Be ashamed of Allah’s words???? Have you read the Quran?
    Do you think that Allah created murderers or do people chose to murder???
    Same with homosexuel.

  11. cairo…thank you for highlighting my comment. I too get irritated when Muslims (or any “religious” folk) castigate homosexuals as if they are the very worst of humanity.

    To compare them to pedophiles and rapists is absolutely disgusting. My husband was a pedophile and rapists…and that truly pisses me off to see true love between two people reduced to what that monster did to me and my children.

    I will never believe that being gay is wrong..and I left a further comment expanding on this on that particular post…and as for the person who said “its not natural”. It may not be natural for you….but for some it is. Who are you to say what is or isnt a natural feeling for someone?

    Two same sex people CAN have sex…it happens all the time…thats a moot point. And there are plenty of “heterosexual” animals in the animal kingdom that also engage in homosexual sex…so once again…who are you to say what is natural?

  12. if anal sex if haram for a husband and wife (per QUr’an) then why is it ok for two males? at what point does it become halal?

    so we are to ignore Allah’s decrees to satisfy our own opinions?

    when you pick what you do and dont like from a religion and make it your own, then you are not truly following that particular religion, youve becoming something else.

    especially with islam. muslim means submit to the will of Allah but when you question his laws, refuse to bend to his laws, say he is WRONG because this is a new day and time… are NOT submitting.

    i will never be ashamed of following the laws of Allah. i dont hate anyone. i dont care what you do in your house. but i will never say HEY ITS OK BECAUSE I THINK gOD IS WRONG.

    i would rather be ashamed in front of fellow humans than in the eyes of Allah.

    • “when you pick what you do and dont like from a religion and make it your own, then you are not truly following that particular religion, youve becoming something else.”

      That’s funny, I see so many Salafi or traditionalist Muslims do exactly this, the same thing reformists/progressive Muslims are always accused of.

  13. Cairo: many people will often argue in this manner from any religion, Islam or not. I’ve seen Christians and Jews do the same thing. Doesn’t make it right for US to judge. Only God is suppose to judge. One may believe the books say homosexuality is wrong but it does NOT say to hate them, be horrible to them, and slander them. Our God is not telling us to judge. So whether you believe the act is wrong or not it is WRONG to slander, hate, and belittle someone for their acts and beliefs. Let God be the judge, to each his own.

  14. As a gay Muslim, I’m pretty used to the broken records of hate speech I hear from people who ironically think they are the most devout.
    But MUCH in this post surprises me.
    Apparently some people think it’s okay to start dictating who SHOULD be Muslim AND encouraging other people to leave Islam both directly by TELLING THEM SO and indirectly by being complete insensitive idiots to the point of tarnishing the image of our religion.
    Isn’t that a huge combo of both shirk and taking on the role of the devil?
    Only Allah can dictate who is ‘worthy’ enough of worshiping him and who isn’t and EVERYONE is free to worship the Almighty. What, you think you’re God now? Deciding who is better off being Muslim? Have you completely lost your mind? This puritan euphoria you are in is ridiculous.
    I would like to see how confidently you face Allah after you tried to push away even ONE of his worshipers. Isn’t that the devil’s job?
    People like you are complete douches.
    Going back to the issue that I’m sure you will try to use to discredit me. Yes I am a homosexual.
    Let me just make some things CLEAR from a FIRST HAND point of view, since many of you think you’re speaking with authority yet you have never even experienced what it is like to be homosexual.
    To me, and all the homosexuals I know, no one chooses to be homosexual.
    I didn’t wake up one day and think, hey today would be a great day to start being gay.
    In fact, when I realized that females are not attractive to me at all both PHYSICALLY and yes EMOTIONALLY, I was initially deeply disturbed.
    I spent literally YEARS praying to God, locking myself up and just begging to be turned into a heterosexual. Didn’t happen.
    So I thought since all Muslims hate who I have become maybe I should stop being Muslim. But then I realized that I miss Allah and worshiping him. Why should I stop being a Muslim just because of people who have promoted THEMSELVES to a level of scholarly authority. We all know there is only ONE authority in our religion. Only ONE and HE decides whether he will accept me or not. And that is a journey for ME ALONE to deal with.
    Seriously, why are you so up in my business anyway? Just because I’m gay it doesn’t give you the right to make so many accusations, assumptions and decisions about me. You are SUCH an INTRUSION, into the lives of SO MANY! What you think about me is something that I will never even take seriously, do you think in the overall experience of life, it REALLY matters what YOU think? Who YOU think is worthy of religion, love and forgiveness? REALLY? Can’t you see you are a narcissistic, self involved, self grandiose, self proclaimed religious authority? You think this is how Allah wants you to act as a MUSLIM? Some of the most devout people I know are homosexuals or bisexuals of both sexes. Because the power of their belief lies in what’s INSIDE, the way you think being devout is all about fighting the ‘wrong’ outwardly is disturbing! Look into yourself. Seriously, I mean this in kindness, I swear to God, look into yourself. Can you really live with all this hate inside you? Do you think that is what Allah wanted of you? To be a bundle of hate encased in skin? Really? This is what you think Islam is? Cause you’re only submitting to your hate and prejudice at the moment and sadly not to Allah and his message of peace and tolerance. Seriously, shame on you.
    And for people who compare homosexuality to rape and pedophilia. All I can say is that you are seriously either ignorant or severely mentally challenged.
    I encourage you to have a little chat with a molested child, a rape victim and a consenting homosexual adult. I hope you have enough intelligence to compare what you will learn.
    Traumatizing a child or viciously sexually forcing yourself onto a person differs vastly from having CONSENTING sex with an adult. Do I REALLY have to spell this out for you?
    And having sex with DOGS? Well, this shows how your ‘pure’ Muslim mind really thinks, don’t you agree?
    I do not expect you to suddenly wrap yourself in a rainbow flag and run around the streets chanting for gay rights.
    You don’t particularly agree with homosexuality, fine, there are many things I don’t particularly agree with either.
    I really don’t need your agreement on this.
    But being TOLERANT, NON-JUDGMENTAL and KIND to ALL people is the key to heal all the rifts in Islam and in the world.
    Get off your high-horse and get off your self-invented throne.
    Only ONE deserves that throne and he is rightfully the only one on it and the only one who will judge you AND me.
    So do yourself a favor, stop trying to play the role of God.
    “You should be ashamed.”

    • GayMuslim,

      I am standing up and clapping and cheering! ***clap clap clap***

      I agree 100% with everything you are saying, and I have gotten to the point of a scratchy throat when defending homosexuality against hate. People with hate in their hearts do a disservice to themselves, everything they say about people says more about their own character than the people they are talking about.

      I truly think God’s test for us is love. Hate is so easy, but love, wow, love is something to strive for.

    • Wonderful comment…and from one that is living what every other Muslim is actively condemning.

      Yes…shame on all of YOU that are filled with such hate and accusation. God really has his work cut out for him if you are the best of his followers. *sigh*

    • first on the judgement part.
      to restate what is stated in the Qur’an is not judgment from me but from our lord Allah.

      second what is being condemned here is the act of homosexuality not the person himself. Everyone has his or her own nafs to fight and some have it harder than others.

      That being said everyone has a role in society. If you go live in a shariah based country chances are if you declare yourself a homosexual you are liable for whatever punishment is deemed appropriate by the Qazi. That is their role in society. If you are a secret homosexual well then the matter rests between you and Allah and everyone coexists peacefully.

      no one wants to get in your business. you are making it everyones business. the reason you prayed all those many years from change is that you believed it to be a sin. and like any sin it should have been left a matter between you and Allah. Commiting a sin repeatedly causes the heart to harden and not feel the sin. i am not saying this is the case with you.

      i don’t think sympathy here is appropriate but it is a mujahida of your nafs. i would highly recommend you not publicize any of your sins.

      in the end Allah Ta’ala knows best and he is after all Ar’Rahman and Ar’Raheem

        • You’re like a text book example of the people I’m talking about.
          It’s funny however, since my heart is supposedly stone because of all of my sins YET I tend to show a lot more compassion towards many different people and circumstances than people who are the self-proclaimed “pious”. I don’t think it’s MY heart that’s hardened.

          And I’M making it everyone’s business? Well, since I am a homosexual, AND it seems that a lot of people are commenting on HOMOSEXUALITY then it would be my business no?

          One more thing, where exactly is it that I said gay sex is NOT a sin!? Lol, first the post started with Sara’s DISCLAIMER, and it wasn’t even about whether its HALAL. She just asked for some non-judgmental compassion and THEN like it ALWAYS DOES, the conversation HAD to go to the fact that’s it’s haram. Did I say it’s halal? I know it’s a sin, DUH! Seriously, you make it so easy to be judgmental to a group of people because what they do is ‘haram’. Is it only homosexuals, or are you generally this way with anyone who does anything that’s haram? Do you show so much judgment and ferocious conduct with other people who do haram things? People who drink for example? In my experience, it isn’t so. A lot of people are more harsh with homosexuals than with any other people who conduct a “sin on a regular basis”.

          And you know why? I think it’s because a lot of people have been raised to think of homosexuals as disgusting.

          Well, I’m not disgusting. And at the end of the day, sorry BUT if homosexuality is a test, then it’s one of the hardest tests in the world. Because who you ARE is the test, not what you DO. So I’m sick of people comparing my life to their experience. “Oh I wanted to have sex with this girl but I didn’t cause it’s haram.” Well, Einstein, you can marry her. You have a way OUT, you can marry someone ELSE. You can get MARRIED. So NO, its not comparable! It’s not like I’m bisexual. If I’m attracted to a woman, I WOULD be with one. Don’t you think it would even be easier for ME? I wouldn’t have to face all this bullshit anger for something I didn’t chose. But the truth is I am GAY. GAY, GAY, GAY. GAY.

          So, there is so much MORE to my life then just knowing something is HARAM. God, people PLEASE just THINK outside of your that little box you confine your brain in. It’s a DISCUSSION. You don’t understand what it’s like to be in my shoes, it’s a constant struggle. And it really is demeaning of my experience in life for you to come and just proclaim things without even understanding the implications of what you’re saying.

          • “And I’M making it everyone’s business? Well, since I am a homosexual, AND it seems that a lot of people are commenting on HOMOSEXUALITY then it would be my business no?”

            Lol. Seriously, you’re the only person who is actually experiencing it, but you’re supposedly not allowed to talk about it, while everyone else can say what they want!

            “And you know why? I think it’s because a lot of people have been raised to think of homosexuals as disgusting.”

            I think that’s EXACTLY it.

            It’s sad to see Muslims be judgmental before being compassionate. It’s also funny to see them compare eating pork and not having pre-marital sex to being alone for your whole life.

  15. no matter of what we think about homosexuality we have no right to discriminate toward gay people (muslim or not muslim) or deny their rights.sitting instead of god and make judgments instead of him as many muslims do regularly, is a far bigger sin than sleeping with a same sex(if you think it is a sin).
    Bahlool , as a devote shia I dont know the Emam Ali(pbh) that you explained in your comment.please dont justify your ideas with Emam Ali(pbh).

  16. I have a bunch of links to Muslim reformists on my blog, but there was one link in particular people got all riled about… Irshad Manji (an openly gay Muslim who’s published controversial books about reforming Islam). People even said that someone studying Islam must be lying about their interest if they have a link to Irshad Manji’s website, and that I was weakening the faith of “true” Muslims by having the link. While some objections were raised about the other links, the only one repeatedly mention by name was that one. I can’t help but wonder if it was her arguments they objected to, or her sexuality, but just having a link to her on my blog (no promotion or discussion on her or her books – just a link) bought me a wave of commentator protest, some of which were too offensive for me to feel comfortable publishing.

    One thing I love about Islam is that it requires no intercessor between us and God… so why do some people think we should listen to them instead?

  17. Irshad Manji has two strikes against her…or should I say three? She is female…she is gay..and she actively promotes reinterpretation of some of the more unfriendly ayats and hadith etc concerning Islam.

    Muslims with predjudices stopped listening to her the moment she opened her mouth…as they do ALL Muslims that do not fit neatly into their “ideal” Muslim mold.

    Their loss.

  18. Firstly, i find it amusing that you guys speak of it was stated, we dont hate the person, we hate the action. Islam is pretty clear, you can be gay, but you cant act out that urge. We all have differend urges, i have the urge to hit some people sometimes, but i dont do that. I have the urge to insult people sometimes, but i dont do that. Its all up to us to controle our urges. Imam Ali has mentioned that people who are slaves of their urges are the bad ones, these people are slaves of their homosexual desires.
    I dont really care about them so to state its hate is just plain stupid.

    As for your religion, i am just stating,t hat you seem to have a lot of issues with islam and how islam is interpreted by the muslim theologists, if so, why be muslim?
    To be clear, islam is a whole package, there are some parts you can interpret freely, and there are some parts that you cant interpret as you wish.
    One part is the homosexual thing.
    You say its not about the Quran and the hadiths, and its so wrong. Its all about the Quran and the hadiths. You either follow the words of the holy Prophet or you dont. There is no inbetween.

    The quran doesnt say go kill them, it states though that this action is a sin and a crime against Allah and that Allah has punished such people before and the ulamaa of the 5 schools of thought have differend views on what kind of punishment, but all are on agreement, that they are to be punished.
    thus my dear sister, there is no gray zone. You are not obliged to hate them, or to punish them, but to state anything but disslike of the homosexual way of life, is in my view proof that you maybe are not happy in islam?

    You become muslim and take the whole package, its not islam that has to change but you and your thinking, thats something that stupid arabs like hte wahabis hvnt understood. I myself make many mistakes and sins on a daily basis, but i know when i am wrong and when i am right. I never ever would defend an unislamic behavour or thinking, which you are doing exactly now.

    You know why christianity is so weak? Its because people started to question its message and thought its not the message of Allah. They started to allow homosexual actions, they started to abolish other rules in christianity just to gain some respect or agnowledgment by the masses. This is the wrong way to go.

    • “As for your religion, i am just stating,t hat you seem to have a lot of issues with islam and how islam is interpreted by the muslim theologists, if so, why be muslim?”

      Because not all Muslims believe in the Islam that has been interpreted by “certain” Muslim theologians. I know this may shock you, but there are different interpretations of the Qur’an and sunnah, and your scholars are not the “best” scholars.

  19. Irshad manji and others are ignorant fools. islam has rules for how you interpret the quran, you cant just go sit down and think you can interpret at your own free will. She can propgate what ever she likes and you can think we at loss, but the question is, who is at loss, the ones who follow the religion of allah or those who try to interpret it to suit their own ways of thinking?
    Homosexuality is a sin, there is no discussion about that, to defend a sinner who keeps on sinning and who keeps on trying to lure the masses shows how wrong you are.
    Go read the sura about Wal Asr and you will see who are the losers and who are not..

    The caliphs built the whole city of samarra for their boyfriends, so yeah homosexuality has been and is part of the arabs for centuries, but that doesnt make it ok. Its corruption of socieity.

    • It’s funny how everyone thinks my private love life is corrupting society.
      Apparently homosexuals have tremendous powers to control the community?

      Bahlool, *sigh*, I’ve read a lot of your comments before. I do not agree with your opinions, DEFINITELY NOT, but I must say that I respect that you do have opinions. I’m no hypocrite, you can have your own beliefs about certain issues. I just wonder why you feel like expressing them the WAY you do? I feel like you find it a thrill to come onto blogs with people who think differently and just forcibly enforce your ideas as the ones that are true. If you’re not willing to really listen to the other side, why do you keep coming back? You feel attacked, and obviously you know you will be. It’s not the first time you’ve commented here. But don’t you ever think of changing your approach, not your opinions, but your APPROACH? I don’t know anything about you, so I won’t form an opinion of whether you’re a bad or good person. But does it not matter to you if you are hurting anyone with the way you are saying things? Or do you like feeling like the martyr of blogs? Is it an exciting challenge for you?

      To me, there are bigger problems than homosexuality in Islam, at the end of the day, as a homosexual I am not hurting anyone else. But Muslims who have suddenly lost the ability to be kind and speak with calculated decorum and respect really do go around hurting people, and in my opinion their religion’s image as well.

      I won’t argue with you Bahlool. Not because I think you’re right, but because I’ve been having this debate for over ten years. And I’m exhausted. Because I feel like, with people who approach the issue the way you do, WHAT EVER I say falls on deaf ears.

      I know you think you will always have the upper hand because you follow what you believe is RIGHT. But this whole blog is about exploring different interpretations and talking about certain issues and whether they still apply today. Again, WHY are you here reading this blog Bahlool?

      And why won’t you understand that this post is not about the sin but about being kind and non-judgmental?

      I really hope you just think of what I am saying here in a non-defensive way. Just look at your conduct Bahlool, honestly think about the way you are portraying yourself.

      • “Apparently homosexuals have tremendous powers to control the community?”

        I guess you’re the new Zionists?

        “To me, there are bigger problems than homosexuality in Islam, at the end of the day, as a homosexual I am not hurting anyone else. But Muslims who have suddenly lost the ability to be kind and speak with calculated decorum and respect really do go around hurting people, and in my opinion their religion’s image as well”

        Exactly. That idea seems pretty logical to me but apparently people don’t get it.

        I don’t understand how homosexuals are corrupting the community. Besides, we have SO MANY other issues as Muslims right now, such as domestic violence, lack of manners, lack of education, lack of compassion.

        “But this whole blog is about exploring different interpretations and talking about certain issues and whether they still apply today.”

        Exactly! I appreciate hearing traditional views of Islam, like Bahlool’s. But then we should also be able to explain other views without getting attacked and criticized.

  20. Bahlool…being gay isnt an “urge” like wanting to hit someone. Anger comes and goes…being gay is a lifelong “urge”.

    The fact that interpretation is needed for a book that is supposed to be clear and easy to understand for the believer…means men can control the interpretation and give which ever one suits them…which results in far more unfriendly ayats etc then a religion should have….specially concerning women, non muslims…and yes…gays.

    Corruption? once again..HOW is being gay corrupting society? What are gay people doing that is destroying society because from what I can see…heterosexuals have that market pretty well covered.

    • this issue of self interpretation is wrong and the proof is in the quran.

      Allah states i think in surah jumuah (i’d have to recheck) wa you zakkihim wa yu allimuhumul kitaba wal hikmata…
      that is purify them and teach them the Qur’an and the interpretations ( to the quran that is hikmat)

      The reason irshad manji cannot be deemed authentic is because she’s a self study meaning she probably discredited anything that was taught by Rasool SAWS, because if the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah are followed then we know with complete certainty that the homosexual act is haraam

  21. Dear Gay Muslim,

    I am a Muslim who prays 5 times a day, I do the basics of Islam and I wear Niqab. At face front value most people would say I am a practicing Muslim and you probably think that I am one of the first people to judge a person like you. I cant speak on behalf of ALL muslims but I can speak on behalf of myself, nobody is judging you. If anything only God reserves the right to judge and I think we all know that. You speak about how you missed that closeness to Allah, even when you thought you can’t be Gay and Muslim. Yes you can be Gay and Muslim at the same time and you can love Allah and want to worship him and everything but there are facts. Facts and facts, by being Gay, you are sacraficing your relationship with God and displeasing him. You may think how are you displeasing God with something you cant help? Well let me ask you something, just because a person thinks about sex all the time doesnt mean he has to commit adultry. Same as you just because you arent attracted to women, does not mean you have to be with a man. You can just accept that this is how god made you but at the same time steer clear of what he forbid. Everybody has their own struggles belive me, its not easy to overcome them but you can and you will Insha’Allah. I cant speak on behalf of God but the Quran, condems homosexuality. This is a fact, we cant ignore the advise of Allah, after all he created you, he knows whats best for you. You may think that the Muslims who appear to “hate” homos are your enemy but they actually want you to be on the right path.

    In the Qur’an it says: “We also sent Lut : He said to his people : “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” Qur’an 7:80-81

    If you were ever involved in sexual homosexual acts in the past, you should truly and sincerely repent to Allah, The Merciful, The Gracious, and pledge to Him never to get involved in any homosexual acts anymore. Please note that there is a difference to actually being involved in a homosexual act -which is a sin – from having sexual feelings that you try to control, that you don’t express in public, which is not sinful if you try to control them.

    If you try to overcome these feelings for Allah swt then, Insha’Allah you will get reward for it.

    We are all Human, nobody is perfect. We all have faults and sometimes they are hard to overcome. There are somethings a person can find hard to accept once they know its the truth. Allah swt would never put you in a situation that cant be overcome. Please, reflect on yourself and think about what means more to you? Pleasing Allah or pleasing yourself.

    Think about when Abraham was put through a test and he was about to sacrafice his own son for the sake of God. You can do the same, and Insha’Allah Allah will help you. I have a final Aya from the Quran that I want you to see

    Theres an aya in the Quran which is very dear to me that will help you.
    It reads: “And whoever Keeps his duty to Allah, Allah will find a way out for him, and he will provide him from sources, he couldnt Imagine. (Quran)

    If you just keep the simple duty to Allah swt and make the choice not to act on your feelings, ( Actions which dont please our creator, we cannot question Why – just let it be). then Allah will find a way out for you in a way you wouldnt even imagine.

    I make dua that Allah swt makes it easy for you to be a dedicant servant of his.

    • after reading all these replies I too have to agree….this is why I can’t find an organized religion either 😦 too much judgement.

  22. By the way, I just read what I wrote, and I didnt mention that I pray 5 times and wear Niqab to sound like im perfect or better than you, I mentioned to show you that I’m not superior to you and to show you that these attributes dont mean that I will judge you because only Allah (praise be to him) holds that authority.

  23. Sarah…over coming the urge for sex now and then and then to eventually marry so that you can fullfill your sexual urges in a “halal” manner…is not quite the same as being told you have to go your entire life without allowing yourself to even once fall prey to your sexual desires.

    Could you, Sarah, go your entire life without sex? Maybe you could, maybe you couldnt…but the difference being is you have an outlet…marriage…

    What do homosexuals have?

    • Coolred, I never implied that overcoming the urge for sex would mean spending the rest of your life without it. We do not know if we will live for tomorrow let alone our the rest of our lives. The main point was to overcome something that is Haram not overcome the urge for sex. Overcoming something haram only means giving up something that you know god forbid, and taking up something that is Halal which God has made permissable.

      To answer your question, to live an entire life without sex would be hard. I could go without sex for the rest of my life if I knew having it would displease God. One shouldn’t give in to sexual urges which are forbidden. and if one insists that he can only have sex in the forbidden manner then he has a choice to overcome it and have sex in the manner that is allowed or not have sex at all. It all depends on his priorities and Allah made human free willed. Its our choice.

      For example. A hungry person loves pork and only feels satisfied by the taste of t pork. But the problem is that pig meat is forbidden in his religion. He has a choice to eat what is allowed even though he doesn’t really like it or eat what is haram and he really loves it but knows God forbid it. – or he can starve BUT God never put his slave through a situation that can’t be solved.

      (Sorry its a really weird example but I couldnt think of anything else)

      Nobody is being denied the right to have sex. God has put down the rules in which makes sex permissble, its up to us to obey or disobey.

      Homosexuals also have an outlet – obedience to the creator.

      Disobedience to God would only cause harm, he created us and knows what is best for its creation so we should avoid the things he warned us against.

      A person who insists that he can only engage in sexual relations with the same sex knows that they will be committing a sin. Homosexuality is condemned by all religions not just Islam. If one wants to abandon the rules religion all together, then that’s a different story.

      • Sarah,

        I want to sincerely thank you for your post. We view things differently, but I wholeheartedly appreciate and I am very grateful for the way you have addressed me. This is all I am asking for, respect, and thank you for giving it to me.

        I feel like you are giving me heart felt advice, and again I appreciate it.
        When it comes to urges it’s a bit different then what you talk about. Honestly, I don’t think that if I fall in love with someone and spend my life with them, I will be able to not have sex for the rest of my life. I’m not sure if I could, but I don’t think I can.

        To me, in my opinion, no one knows me better than Allah. I think I’m a good person. I really do. And I am hoping that Allah will forgive whatever I do as a homosexual. I have a lot of faith in him that he is merciful. It doesn’t mean I’m delusional. I just have faith that how I am judged by God will be more that just about my sexuality. He only knows how hard it is to be in my situation. And knowing how fair Allah is, I am hoping that everything else I do as a kind and good person will also be taken into account, and not just my love life.

        Also, not being able to follow one rule, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to follow the others.

        Again, thank you Sarah. I really respect your comments!

  24. Bahlool,

    “You know why christianity is so weak? Its because people started to question its message and thought its not the message of Allah. They started to allow homosexual actions, they started to abolish other rules in christianity just to gain some respect or agnowledgment by the masses. This is the wrong way to go.”

    First of all the reason Christianity got “weak”, was because of your type of thinking, which is to ascribe authority to Church theologians and priests, who eventually condemned everything to sin because it’s natural to assume that religion is mostly about “not doing things”.

    It’s lack of questioning that leads to religions crumbling. I do agree however that there is no grey area, you either follow what the Prophet said, or you don’t – so I’m wondering if the Prophet would ever go around telling people that “they shouldn’t Muslim”.

    There’s a muslim prayer, where one asks God to not be a “fitna” to their religion – meaning that they would turn people off of Islam in their actions, I really think more non-muslims that read your posts would be turned off more than anything. I’m not saying this because of what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it. In psychology if you want someone to accept your arguments, you have to first acknowledge and validate their arguments regardless of whether or not you agree with them. Meaning, you have to try and understand their side of it, and why they think the way they do, before arguing against it. What you’ve done is simply spew hatred, you’re ascribing motivations to other people, that they’re simply pro-homosexuality because they want to follow their whims and desires. I don’t necessarily support the idea that homosexuality is allowed in Islam, but I would never judge someone’s “Islam” if they did. Also your statement that someone is “too westernized” is nothing but pure bigotry.

    You sir, must shush now.

    • “First of all the reason Christianity got “weak”, was because of your type of thinking, which is to ascribe authority to Church theologians and priests, who eventually condemned everything to sin because it’s natural to assume that religion is mostly about “not doing things”.”

      Great point! This weird obedience to scholars has become worrying.

      “you’re ascribing motivations to other people, that they’re simply pro-homosexuality because they want to follow their whims and desires.”

      Exactly. Supporting homosexuality is always equated with wanting to ruin humankind.

  25. Just because religion is usually interpreted by men, doesnt make it false or wrong. I think your guys feminism is going a bit too far at times. The Quran is clear, but without the knowledge of what lies behind the specific ayah, it would be ignorant and stupid to think that you can reinterpret it.
    This is the mistake many islamophobes do, why would a muslim want to do the same mistake? Take things out of context and so forth?

    As for those who disslike “organized” religion, thats your loss and your problem and something you have to live with yourself. The question is, do we believe in a creator? Do we think heknows best and he has created us and that his word ist he Quran? If so then there is no discussion about what to think of homosexuals behaving like they do.

    • Most Islamic feminists are putting things INTO context. Why was polygamy allowed? Why were women inheriting less than men? ALL of that had to do with the context, and that’s what feminists are focusing on.

  26. Jazak Allah Khair brother Bahlool, you took the words out of my mind.

    Alot of people are focusing on what Muslims say instead of what Islam says. We need to look at what Islam says for itself.

  27. Our “feminism”? how come you make that sound like a bad word?

    “behaving like they do”?…again…your language smacks of self righteous superiority. Very unmuslike of you.

  28. Coolred, Im feeling alot of animosity towards Muslims from your side, especially with the sacrcasm. Perhaps the Muslims you have dealt with are not so great, but that does not mean you should assume that all Muslims are that way.. You shouldn’t let anger cloud your ability to make proper judgement.

    I think what Bahlool means is that sometimes the feminist attitude can be a little overbearing especially when this issue has nothing to do with Women’s rights. Just like anything TOO much is not good. There has to be a balance, Im sure thats what is meant.

    Anyway Coolred, I can really sense you have resentment towards Muslims, I dont know why.. I also feel that you despise Muslims lol, but anyway you are not the first and definatley not the last.. i pray that you meet new muslims that can change your perspective..

    • How did feminism get brought in to this discussion? We are not talking about FEMINISM, we are talking about Gay Rights! Overbearing, overbearing?!?! hahaha!! That is funny.. Go talk to Bahlool about overbearing, k?

      Bahlool, you yourself talk about how you are far from perfect, and not a good Muslim, yet you preach on here like you are God’s right hand. LOL, such hypocrisy! very funny, these “pious” religious people. You wear a mask of being pious and all knowing through your words, yet clearly admit how far from Islam you yourself are. So why are you on here preaching to all of us again? Why would we take advice from someone who admits they themselves do not practice “correctly?” That is like me taking advice about marriage from a friend who just cheated on her husband.. LOL

      Thoughts, feelings, and actions are all in alignment when one can call themselves “whole.”

      I consider myself a whole person, what I think, feel and do are in alignment, and I have no qualms about it.

      Bahlool, you yourself admit you are completely a mess, basically. You preach one thing but do the opposite. Why the hell would I place any merit on your words? I have been reading your comments, and also have been attacked by you, plenty of times, since this blog was on blogger, go back and read through the archives.

      You’re a mess. Get yourself right with God before trying to tell us how we should get right. And get off your pedestal, you’re making a fool of yourself and making Islam look bad. You’re like the Republicans in America who preach hate against gays, but then are caught in the bathroom playing footsie with each other. I’m so over you and your hate speech laced with claims of “real Islam.” Get over yourself.

      • Every discussion about problems in Islam somehow turns to feminism, the enemy of every Muslim man. We feminazis only lead to fitnah in the otherwise serene Muslim environment.

  29. I agree with Jana’s comment.

    I personally support gay rights and legislation like proposition 8, etc. Really I could care less who a person chooses to spend their lives with and who is having sex with whom. In a secular society (wouldn’t want to live in any other) every person should have the same rights under the law. That doesn’t change the fact that homosexuality (the act) is impermissible in Islam. No amount of “reinterpretation” is going to change that. It is pretty cut and dry in the Quran.

    However, in the spirit of compete honesty there are other things in the
    Quran that we dismiss as only applying to the times and no longer relevant to our lives. The example that comes first to mind is needing 2 female witnesses. The more moderate scholars write that this only applies to financial transactions. However, clearly, women of today in a lot of cases are more knowledgable about finaces and more educated than a lot men. It isn’t feasible and frankly insulting to feel I need another witness for things I do constantly in daily life. But I suppose that’s another blog post eh Sara?

    • “However, in the spirit of compete honesty there are other things in the Quran that we dismiss as only applying to the times and no longer relevant to our lives”

      Another example: slavery.

  30. Sarah…it is always the final answer I get…that i despise Muslims. That is like a failsafe answer that apparently is meant to shut me up and close the subject. Im sorry to disappoint you Sarah but I do not in face despise Muslims. Some Muslims are definitely works of art, so to speak, and others deserve the very worst punishment God has to offer…and still some are pathetic excuses for the standard Muslims should exhibit…but that does not mean I despise all of them wholesale.

    And I do have a certain animosity and resentment towards SOME…because some of them treated me and my children like shit…so theres that. Cant change really how I feel about THOSE particular Muslims. Not to mention at the end of the day…my OWN children are Muslim…and therefore to despise Muslims would mean I despise them…and that would never happen.

    So, no Sarah, you do not get off easy by using the standard Muslim failsafe that I hate ALL Muslims and that is the reason for my “rants”. And nowhere in any post or comment of mine anywhere on these blogs will you see me use the term ALL Muslims…if I did it was by mistake and I apologize for my oversite.

    Your comment…”I hope you meet new muslims that change your perspective”…sounds nice…too bad it cant be right here and right now on THIS blog…eh?

    • Coolred, thats really unfortunate what Muslims did to you and your children. But Im assuming you live in an arab country so most likely when someone was going to hurt you theyre likely to be MUSLIM. *Suprise Suprise*.

      I’ve also been hurt by Muslims, christians, white people.. all different sorts of people.. PEOPLE hurt people not Muslims not Christians just people. And they dont hurt others because of their religion, they hurt them because they deviated in religion and left one of the main orders of God. (Don’t harm others).

      Unfortunatley, when a Muslim does something wrong, its Islam that suffers..

      Btw I don’t know why everyone seems to be attacking Bahlool when he was just stating the fact that Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam and why etc.. He did not choose it this way, I did not choose it, nobody can choose what Allah has decreed. It’s the creator who decrees and we obey but the choice is yours really.

      Nobody is attacking Homosexual people, they are people at the end of the day but if they are in the fold of Islam, its not our duty to judge, but a duty to try to tell them that Allah has forbidden it, why etc.. theres no harm in trying to save someone from leading a sinful life.

      Anyway I’ve said all i can, I feel that Muslims are being attacked everytime they use the word “haram”. Let me just say that Muslims shouldn’t have to justify themselves to people everytime another muslim does something wrong. With all these so called “bad Muslims” that leave a bad taste in people’s mouths, it still the fasted growing religion.. go figure.


    • “Your comment…”I hope you meet new muslims that change your perspective”…sounds nice…too bad it cant be right here and right now on THIS blog…eh?”

      There are some cool Muslims on here 😀

      Although I was advised to leave the religion, I think I’ll stick around 😀

  31. Sarah, I just had a thought:

    What if (and this is purely hypothetical so I know it wouldn’t really happen), but what if God personally came down and said to you that you HAD to be gay from now on. Basically, even though you aren’t in the least bit attracted to other women (I’m assuming), you are expected to never give in to any feelings of attraction for any man… not only that but you would have to leave the man you loved (if you’re married or something). You might say, “well, I wouldn’t do that! Its unnatural!” To YOU it is – to someone who is gay, being with someone of the opposite gender is JUST AS DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND.

    And as to your Guy-who-likes-pork scenario: maybe a more accurate scenario is a guy who couldn’t properly digest anything else… sure he could survive on other foods, but he would be miserable and unhealthy ALL THE TIME.

    And Bahool: Just because religion is usually interpreted by men, doesnt make it valid or correct. God didn’t grant men Magical Penises of Truth – which means women can do scholarly analysis too, if given the chance. And there is no reason your laymen’s interpretation of Islam is better than any other laymen interpretation. It would be ignorant and stupid to think that you can force your interpretation on others: you’re not a prophet, or a religious leader, and I seriously doubt you’re a scholar. Finally, you’re not God. So maybe you should spend more time praying and less time worrying about the trouble us crazy women are stirrin’ up.

    • Sophia, I understand the meaning behind your question but I think theres a better way of asking it as a respect to Allah swt. Firstly Allah swt has the power to order and command what he wishes when he wishes and to whom he wishes. Secondly, if Allah commanded man kind to do something they found very difficult, then it would only mean it is a test from God. Think about Prophet Abraham, when God asked him to slaughter his son. Can you imagine the difficulty of slaughtering your son?? He proceeded to do so anyway, why? because it was a commandment from God. In the end, God told abraham that it was only a test and he did not have to slaughter his son. But what does this teach us? It teaches us a few things.. I’l leave that up to you to think about.

      The scenario I used it more accurate because a homosexual person having intercourse with the oppisate sex will not cause him any harm to his body.

      I think it all comes down to the individuals priority in life.. If your priority is God then it will shape your life in a different way, even with things you LOVE but God hates. You will begin to steer clear of that he hates and eventually not even think about it anymore.

      Allah would never put his slave in a situation that there was no way out of. Everyone on here keeps saying “your not God”. Well your not God either so why do you try to say that something is okay when God has said otherwise.

      If you would like to know what God judgment is then open the Qur’an. In the end, the ultimate Judge is Allah, and I will say that only to find rest in my heart because I belive his mercy overceads his wrath and we don’t know who is forgiven and who isnt – the ultimate decision is up to Allah swt.

      The trouble with people, is that questioning doesnt stop at questioning, it continues to criticizing.. it steers in a direction that will lead one away from God.

      Just let it be people. This is Allah almighty. Trust him and trust no-one else.

      • “Allah would never put his slave in a situation that there was no way out of. Everyone on here keeps saying “your not God”. Well your not God either so why do you try to say that something is okay when God has said otherwise.”

        No one is saying that homosexuality is okay with God – my disclaimer at the beginning of the post emphasized that (it was in bold people). We’re saying don’t treat homosexuals like crap. Full stop. Why is that such a controversial idea?

    • Because men’s interpretations are the only ones that count, Sophia! Duh! That is why Amina Wadud, a SCHOLAR, is called a fraud by many men, because she is a female interpreting Islam from a woman’s point of view, how dare her have validity!! She can’t, she is a woman, therefore, she cannot possibly be a legitimate scholar!

      Or so they say, at least… 🙂

      • Almost clever,
        Its not because only men’s interpretation only count, its because 1000 years ago, it was the men of Islam that had the time to study Islam thoroughly day and night, Month after month, year after year who eventually became Scholars of Islam.

        Aisha (r.a) was a scholar of Hadith. Doesnt she count?

        And Amina Wadud is NOT a scholar of Islam, and she wasn’t called a fraud because she interpreted Islam from a woman’s point of view, its because she interpreted it from a completely skewed and distorted point of view.

        • “And Amina Wadud is NOT a scholar of Islam, and she wasn’t called a fraud because she interpreted Islam from a woman’s point of view, its because she interpreted it from a completely skewed and distorted point of view”

          Asking for reinterpretation of unfriendly ayats pertaining to women…unfriendly hadith pertaining to women…is considered distorted and skewed?

          Seriously Sarah…I would like to ask you whose side are you on…but you will most likely say Gods side. So I ask you this…quite a few of those so called scholars out there are completely full of shit when they give their interpretations of what an ayat or hadith “really means”. yet they spent years studying to reach the point of being called a scholar…passed some tests Im guessing (I would hope) etc etc..yet still full of shit.
          So how exactly is the amount of time spent studying directly related to knowledge? Im a little foggy on that. Please explain.

          One more thing, Aisha, has knowledgeable as she was, refuted several “well known and accepted” hadith…specifically when referring to abu huraya…and yet HIS hadith are touted more often than not..and are the most anti women hadith out there. Yet muslims still refer to HIM more than her…when spouting out hadith…why is that?

          Possibly because he was a man..and therefore more knowlegable…cause her place as wife of the prophet certainly meant she spent more time around the prophet for sure…but his are the hadith that are remembered and repeated more often.

          Go figure.

          • LOL @ you will most likely say Gods side. Classic!

            Being an Islamic scholar today means accepting what other scholars have said in the past and making an effort not to think. Anyone who disagrees with “tradition” or “consensus” is not only a bad Muslim but possibly an apostate.

            Asking for any kind of reinterpretation leads directly to fitnah, so of course Wadud is a problem.


            Aisha DID refute many of Abu Hurayra’s hadith as well as the man himself. Funny no one ever mentions that.

              • Many of Aisha’s hadith, that were thought of as feminist, were thrown out by men who were historically raging sexists. So there has been picking and choosing throughout human history, it is our nature, from the most extreme to the most liberal, and everyone inbetween. Conservatives just seem to have a stranglehold on WHO gets to pick and choose, and who doesn’t. Aisha had hundreds and hundreds of hadith, yet only a small minority, chosen by men, were kept and passed on.. So what have we missed? What was Aisha talking about that these men felt did not count? We will never know. I am sure that is the same thing being done to Wadud and other feminist scholars. News Flash, Aisha was the first feminist in Islam, aside from the prophet of course (PBUH). Islam was started by a feminist! The problem is just that it has been made into a dirty word, I wonder how the prophet (PBUH), a man so clearly for women’s rights, would feel about our situation today.

                People always use Aisha as an example of a female scholar, but we don’t know even half of what she actually wanted to be part of the hadeeth. Her interpretations were edited, just as many women’s interpretations today are either edited or not taken seriously, or called “feminist” which for whatever reason has been turned into a cuss word by Muslims.

        • Sorry but Amina Wadud IS a scholar of Islam. When did Islam become a religion of blind obedience to “scholars,” who are usually self-proclaimed authorities?

      • Amina wadood invalidity has nothing to do with her being a woman but more so to do with her going directly against the shariah and Quran and sunnah.

  32. i really think people need to read this book:
    Muhammad Akram Nadwi: Al-Muhaddithat: The Women Scholars in Islam.

    there were plenty more than Ayesha RA.

  33. Kwarne:
    So you want to hush me up because i dont agree with you or others like you? Funny..I am not in the business of spreading islam by selling it out. Islam is clear, the Quran is clear, Allah is clear and the >Prophet is clear. If you like hte message of islam, then you dont have to reinterpret it, change it or force it to adept, you adept, you change and you reinterpret your life.
    I am not telling anyone to be a muslim or not, but the holy Prophet was also clear, we have an Aqeedah, which states that you follow Allah, his Prophet and the holy Quran, if you think anything in the Quran is grey when it comes to homosexuality, if you say that you can drop some ayahs, or a single word of the Quran or a single dot of the Quran, then you should reconsider calling yourself a muslim.
    As for what you think of me, spewing hate or whatever, get real? I dont hate homosexuel i dont really care about who you sleep with or what you do in your life, i am here to explain to you what islam says, if you take it personell its your problem not mine.
    And you sir, mam, whatever, should either accept that we live in a society where we are allowed to speak our mind, or shush urself.

  34. Coolred:
    Our “feminism”? how come you make that sound like a bad word?

    “behaving like they do”?…again…your language smacks of self righteous superiority. Very unmuslike of you.

    Anything that goes against the Quran or Allah is a bad thing my vocabulary. You dont reinterpret islam just to fit your means or your thinking, Again and again i have to explain a very easy and very logical thing, you adept to islam, not islam adepts to you.
    There are things that can be interpreted (do i have to say this again??) but there are some issues you cant reinterpret.

    As for the fall of christianity, it fell because it had to adept to the views of the masses, and only partly due to the scholars. If the masses demand that you accept homosexuality, and if religion changes and follows the whims of those masses then it stops beeing the word of Allah.
    I think the scholars who have studied and lived for islam for 30-40 years know a lot more then some homosexuall women who tries to change religion to fit her needs and her sick urges.

  35. Almost clever:
    I am a mess, and only a hypocrite would claim to be a “whole” person when they themselves are anything but clever or whole. I dont preach, i am explaining how islam views this, how the Prophet views this, how the Quran views this issue, how the Sahaba view this, how the scholars view this. If you accept it or not is not my business. What i do in my life, what you do in your life, is of no concern to me or islam. I will be judged for my wrongdoings and so will you and so will those homosexuals.
    According to your ignorant logic, i should stay silent and accept your and others missinterpreteation and defence of some corrupt way of life? Seriously, do you really think i preach? If i did i would sit here and talk to you about hell about horrors to come, but thats not my business.
    Fact is, there is no grey zone when it comes to homosexuality. Not in islam. I know i am sinning and i would be stupid to say i dont sin and i am perfect when we humans are anything but perfect, but what you dont seem to understand is that i know my mistakes, i know my wrongs and i know where i fail, the gays and their “muslim” defenders dont. They are making a reinterpretation of islam just to suit their needs and their attitudes.

    And again, why this aggressive stance? If i have hurt you i am sorry, but i think we can discuss this issue a bit more logically? Its a blog written by a muslim about certain issues, if you dont like to view or hear anything that goes against your views then dont discuss?

  36. Sara and coolred it amazes me how hostile you guys are, and ignorant for that matter.
    I am a shiamuslim, i dont accept Abu Hurrayra, how do i fit in your “muslims accept all his hadiths” talk? I have books that are written by famous muslim scholars, one of them is Aminah al Sadr, a feminist that promoted islam and you speak of scholars and i can bet that you dont even know how differend we view scholars. Some of us call any imam in the mosque for a scholar while others say that a scholar that has studied for 30 years is a scholar.
    So all your talk stinks of a lot of ignorance about islam and the muslim world.

    this scholar, has differend views on many issues, including the view that women may masturbate, but he is no apostate, he wasnt killed (only almost killed by our beloved CIA)
    Ihave to say again and again, a lot of hostility and a lot of ignorance coming from your side as you dont even know basic things about islam and the muslim world.
    The issue is homosexuality, there is no other interpretation then that its haram, forbidden, a crime and punishable from lashing to death.
    This is something thtat scholars, Quran and sahbaas have said and i think their words wheight a lot more then your words.
    I doubt we get any farther. The view is pretty clear, we are not talking about how we feel about gays, we are talking about how islam views them and there is no grey area and there is no reinterpretation how much you guys and gays wish.
    wsalam wal ra7ma

  37. Bahlool…you have to be kidding me…WE are trying to shut YOU down??? Muslims around the world have made it an art form to shut down dissenting voices…where ever they may come from…from within or from without the Muslim world.

    I might also add I converted to Islam over 20 years ago….I have spent a lot of that time studying it and reading various “interpetations” and scholarly works on the subject. I lived in the Muslim world for 23 years…right up along side Muslims…Sunni AND Shiia…so I DO know the difference. I am NOT some ignorant Fox News watcher…i could give a sh*t if YOU or any Muslim on here tries to take away from my intelligence and ability to think and claim Im ignorant or arrogant or whatever the hell you want to shut ME up with. I know me better than any of you and I am none of those things.

    I am hostile..yes I agree with you (for once) hostile to Muslims who think they have all the answers to all the questions and therefore no more questions…and therefore no more answers are needed.

    I will NOT stop questioning anything that concerns MY life until I am cold and in the grave…if you think you have all the answers and they sit well with you…then bully for you…go out and celebrate. For me…Im still looking for answers…and so far I dont like what I see…not from you..not from some others on this blog…and if I require more from God…thats between me and God….I think God can deal with me if he thinks Im stepping over the line…dont you?

    The arrogance of Muslims astounds me on a daily basis.

    • Coolred,

      The arrogance of Muslims astounds you? I find this hard to belive when your constantly not pleased with the message of Islam. If your not pleased with the answers then why did you convert to Islam? Thats none of my business? Well it becomes my business when you begin to slander MY RELIGION only because your angry at what some Muslims did to you. (its not Islam’s fault) If you cant comprehend that BAD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS then thats your fault not Islam’s.

      You require more from God? Who do you think you are? God does not need to meet your requirements, neither does Islam for that matter.

      Keep questioning your concerns, but let me just tell you one thing. You don’t seem like you are questioning, you are ridiculing and searching for errors in Islam and once you see something you dont like, you try to convince others that its an error where in actual fact, the error is in yourself. You need to question yourself and why you belive what you belive, or why you dont belive what you dont belive – whatever it is, dont come here and try to insult legitimate scholars who dont have to prove their authority to you, don’t try to blame Muslims for your hatred towards Islam.

      Why did you convert by the way? What is it that drew you to Islam? What made you leave all the other faiths and come to Islam? These questions you need to ask yourself and question yourself before you question the religion.

      Do you mind sharing your conversion story? I’d be very interested to hear about it.

  38. Cool its kinda funny, you claim to be a muslim and you feel so much hate and anger towards muslims. So now i should be responsible for what some muslims in some other country are doing? This is not the subject of our discussion. The subject is, is homosexuality unlawful and punishable by islamic law? Yes.
    So no why would i question it when its so clear in the Quran, in the Hadiths and in the history books about the Sahabas and their thoughts bout this?
    Yes you are ignorant because you claimed certain things about the scholars, about muslims and about islam that were untrue, it has nothing to do with me it has more to do with you and your views of islam and muslims. Look at your anger lol..this is the month of Ramadan, you should calm down, talk softly and try to understand that even if you were a muslim for 1000 years, you cant change the facts. Islam is clear on subjects like homosexuality and no interpretation that suits you and others will change that.
    I am not more knowledgble but i do know what islam says about gays 🙂

    ps: Several tried to hush me down yeah and i dont care about other muslims in other countries as we are discussing this matter here, not in Iraq or Saudi.

    • OKAY!!

      Since this isn’t really about homosexuality anymore.
      Can I just butt in and say something?
      I’m finding this very counterproductive at the moment.
      There seems to be two factions of thoughts here and both sides are insulting each other.
      Listen, both sides aren’t agreeing, but let’s calm down a little bit. I understand that there has been much debate between both ideologies in this blog in general.
      I do think that everyone is entitled to an opinion.
      I just wish, that there would be more respect.
      Okay, I DO agree in opinion with one side over the other, but that’s not what I am talking about.
      Why is everyone so defensive? Probably because a lot of the comments feel like attacks. And if I’m being honest, the attacks are from both sides.
      My first comment on this post isn’t the nicest to be fair.
      I understand how frustrating it can be when you believe in something so much and you feel like it is your duty to defend it.
      But decorum is the key my friends. No one will listen to you if you attack because the natural human response is extreme defense.
      Bahlool, I do not agree with your ideas, but as I said before, I respect that you do have ideas that are different.
      I respect that you feel like you have to defend them. But like I said before, please have more respect. Being disrespectful will never win anyone over. If it is your aim to make an argument, you got it. But if your aim is to try to show people what you believe is right, then you need to find a better way.
      And this goes for EVERYONE else here.

    • “The subject is, is homosexuality unlawful and punishable by islamic law? Yes.”

      That really was not my intention to discuss that when I wrote this post. Is homosexuality wrong according to the Qur’an? Yes. But that’s not the point I was trying to make.

      “you claim to be a muslim and you feel so much hate and anger towards muslims”

      I’m Muslim and I also have much anger towards Muslims, because so many Muslims have become arrogant, judgmental, calculating, and obsessed with the small things (is it halal to drink diet coke? can I tweeze my eyebrows?) No wonder the Muslim world is weak, look at the people in it. I know many Muslims who are very angry at what the Muslim world has become, and what Islam has been made to stand for.

  39. Sarah…please show me where I have slandered anything? waiting…

    Bahlool…I thought Muslims around the world were an Ummah…you know…when the Prophet said we are all brothers and sister etc etc etc…doesnt that mean YOU should care about what Muslims in Iraq or Saudi are doing in regards to your religion? And I never said YOU were personally responsible for all other Muslims…way to read into a comment.

    The ONLY claims I have made regarding Islam is that I happen to not agree with certain parts of the “established” thought process…oh my…how dare I!!! I do NOT slander, I do NOT name call (unless you all get real personal then I can get cross…I am human) and I do NOT ridicule. I ask questions..and look for answers that set well with me, that make me comfortable and at peace with myself…if the answers I get dont do that…then I keep asking and looking.

    You guys dont like that…well bang your heads because I dont really care. Just because I converted to Islam over 20 years ago…doesnt mean I stopped thinking or asking questions upon the day of my conversion. If you have asked all your questions and gotten all your answers and it all sits well with you…as I said…woohoo for you…Im still learning and stil looking.

    Sarah…what does that mean exactly “scholars dont have to prove their authority to me?”…yes they do. Anyone who declares they are speaking on my behalf had better damn well be speaking from a place of knowledge and justice…thats just too funny. Once again…Muslims trying to shut a girl down.


    • Look sweety, keep questioning your concerns, I really couldn’t care less. You will find all your questioned answered in The Qur’an. Whether or not you like the answers, thats YOUR PROBLEM.

  40. Fact of it is, regardless of how you feel about homosexuality, homosexuals have the right to exist like any other human being. In the US, there is a big debate in New York over the Cordoba House, and a big debate in California over Prop 8 – both issues have spread from coast to coast.

    I personally feel that rights trump popular opinion (even during times when I agree with popular opinion – which I don’t in these cases). If Muslims have a right to be recognized and treated with tolerance in America, gays deserve the same.

    If the fears of the masses dictate policy in the US, then Muslims and gays are both royally screwed. Freedom for everyone, or freedom for none.

    • I love this comment Sophia!
      It really is true. Hopefully, most people will agree it’s freedom for everyone. There are so many types of people we are afraid of due to our own prejudices, I have been in those situations myself. But I forced myself to open my mind and be able to understand everyone. Because at the end of the day everyone should have rights, if they do not abuse them. And I don’t see homosexuality as an abuse of rights.

  41. Bahlool,

    I’ve declared you my mentor. Could you quickly help me with this problem ?

    The other day I was trying to classify this color I found under “black”. When that didn’t work, I tried putting it under “white”, but that didn’t work either. Any thoughts ?

  42. I feel like it’s been ages since I last came here and whoa so many changes! Plus a really controversial blog post to welcome me.

    I think it’s easy for heterosexual people to condemn homosexuals, bisexuals, etc etc. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you don’t feel what others are experiencing it’s always so, so easy to say derogatory things about others.

    I don’t support homosexuality nor do I support homophobia. At the same time I don’t see a reason to start throwing discriminatory and judgmental remarks simply because I disagree with someone.

    Allahualam. Allah knows best.

  43. Why thank you Sarah…now that I have your permission…but if ALL my answers were found in the Quran…what the heck are hadith for?

  44. If you dont find the answers in the Qur’an then by all means read hadith. They support many things in the holy Qur’an. Whatever answers your looking for I’m sure you will find them, not sure if you will find the answers that you want to hear but you will find the truth thats for sure.

    🙂 Happy searching.

  45. Sophie its not the same thing. Islam considers homosexuality a crime, does anyone consider muslims to be criminals or islam to be a criminal religion? The laws of the Quran are the only thing that matters in this case for us muslims. Sara her self stated that the Quran is clear, and that its unlawful according to the Quran thus its unlawful according to the muslims. So our point is pretty clear, islam says its unlawful, its a criminal act and there is no support for homosexuals in islam.

    Cool the hadiths help you understand the Quran. For instance if we didnt have the hadiths then some people might not know how many times you pray a day, its not stated in the Quran how many times and so forth.
    Why areyou changing the subject again? Kwame i am noones teacher your problems with colors you have to take up with some washing company. If you wish to learn more about islam then i am more then welcome to help you out 😉

    Once again why this hostility ? We are discussing islam and islams view on homosexuality :))

    • Bahlool,

      If a Muslim suffers from, say, schizophrenia, a mental condition. But in all other aspects, he normal. He sees Jesus coming to him in person, although actually it’s all in his mind. Jesus tells him that Islam is a false religion. And because this Muslim is able to actually “see” and “hear” Jesus in person, he believes what Jesus tells him.

      In actual fact, his mind is unsound in that he’s seeing and hearing things which are not real. But to him, it’s real. He has no control of his condition; he is born with it.

      But he has a choice of whether to believe that Islam is a false religion or not. If he chooses to believe that Islam is a false religion based on what Jesus tells him, would you consider he is being sinful? Supposedly God gave him his brain. Is there anything in the Quran that can deal with this situation?

    • “Cool the hadiths help you understand the Quran.”

      What about the punishment for adultery? The Qur’an clearly states that it should be 100 lashes. The hadith say it’s stoning for a married person.
      Or, the punishment for apostasy. The Qur’an doesn’t say kill them, but the hadith do.

      • aynur…this is blatant culture taking over. The Quran doesnt mention stoning anywhere in the Quran…and for Muslims to say…hadith further explain the Quran is pure B.S. I do believe God could very well explain himself a “little better” if stoning was in fact what he meant…and not leave it to muslims to tell us what he REALLY meant.

        Same thing with apostacy. No mention of murdering them in the Quran…yet again…this is supposedly what God REALLY meant and muslims are using hadith to further explain Gods thinking.

        The audacity of muslims to assume God cant say exactly what he means and that puny humans need to “back him up”. LOL

  46. Bahool, have you watched the news in the US lately? Its enough to make me want to move to Canada! And yes, some are saying that Islam is nothing but a terrorist philosophy masquerading as religion. Some right-wing Christians have even posted ads on public buses proclaiming Islam is a false religion! I guess since its a religious group that says Islam is false, it must be ok, right? They are just doing what God wants, after all. Can’t ask them to question their Creator, oh no, THAT would be wrong. Sorry, no mosques for you, Jesus said no.

    I guess all those Muslims in the US will just have to stop being Muslim – its a CHOICE, after all.

  47. @GayMuslim
    I would like to ask your opinion….
    “In the Qur’an it says: “We also sent Lut : He said to his people : “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women” —-The phrasing of the verse is interesting on two points—first it is referring to an “act” that had never been committed before in human and animal history….unless homosexuality suddenly appeared at this point in time…it may be referring to something else? Second, the verse speaks of men “preferring” men over women—this indicates that the men had a choice/preference—-it is my understanding that for homosexuals—this is not a matter of “choice/preference”—-so…is it possible this is referring to “bisexuality” and not homosexuality?
    and what is your opinion of bisexuality?

    my apologies for any offense I may have caused….as a heterosexual, I am trying to understand homosexuality—which I naturally find alien. However, if the Quran had ever forbidden heterosexuality, I don’t know if I, as a heterosexual, would have ever been comfortable in a homosexual relationship….therefore…I want to dig deeper because I know that God understands Human nature and he promised us in the Quran he did not intend to make religion an undue burden on us.

    • Welcome to the blog!

      I’ve heard that argument before, that the men God is condemning in the Qur’an had a choice, whereas most homosexuals today don’t. If that’s the case then that makes a huge difference.

  48. Thankyou Sara
    It is an interesting topic. I have had an occassion to chat with a homosexual Non-Muslim and from what I understood—he did not have a choice at first, but eventually, as he aged, the situation became different and he felt he could have had a choice.
    There is another point to consider here and that is Justice. The Quran strongly promotes Justice. Therefore, is it right/Just for us humans to interfere in a matter that is between the individual and God? This also pertains to other questions such as women’s dress, keeping Ramadhan or praying etc. The punishements prescribed in the Quran are in instances when the actions of human beings have created a public injustice—that is why 4 witnesses are required (according to the Quran). For those actions that are between the individual and God—not punishments are prescribed in the Quran—as this is a matter for God to Judge—not man…….

  49. Some Muslims have proposed the idea that homosexuals live in a committed same-sex(legal)relationship without sexual intimacy……?……Would like to have GayMuslims opinion on that as well…..

  50. “Ugh. Homophobia pisses me off.”

    Me too!

    I must say CLA that I absolutely love you and your mind. I have not come across many women who are so young and yet carry such a balanced mind on their shoulders.

    I also wanted to add that some of the best people I know – the kindest, most gentle and generous and honest – are gay. I don’t know how that is always the case, but it is.

    • Wow, thank you so much *blushing*…that means a lot to me coming from someone with such an amazing blog! I’m always so happy to find other Muslim women who think the way you do, because there aren’t that many…you give me hope 🙂

      I also know gay people who are the most amazing people on earth. That’s why I find it one of the hardest areas of Islam to deal with – and to discuss, as you can see from some of the comments 😉

  51. Oh thank you Sara. You made me blush too 😀

    Like you, I don’t want to get into the theological debate about homosexuality here. But I want to add that homosexuality is only taboo on the surface. As part of my job I have travelled into the remote areas of some Muslim countries where homosexuality is taken as a normal part of life. I have seen it being acceptable with my own eyes. For example, no ethnographic study would be complete without the mention of homosexuality in Afghanistan, North Pakistan, Punjab, Oman (like Sur for example where it is very common), Iran, the UAE and even Saudi Arabia. Long ago my Saudi student wrote a paper defending homosexuality in Islam! (I have the paper as proof). Once you get close to a Khaleeji they will tell you that it is an accepted fact that 80% of their people are ‘GUM’ (Gay Until Married). When I went to put my son in a Khaleeji school the Egyptian principal who was my mother’s friend told me openly that he will learn excellent Arabic but I should know that almost all boys in that school had gay experience at some point of their lives. Teachers know it, doctors know it, even families know it.

    In Baburnama, the King Babur (who set Islam into the heart of India and established the Muslim empire for 100s of years) writes how he was “maddened” by a boy in a “frothing up of desire and passion.”

    Or read the (in)famous Perfumed Garden in which Abu-Nawwas writes:

    O the joy of sodomy! So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
    Turn not away from it – therein is wondrous pleasure.
    Take some coy lad with kiss-curls twisting on his
    Temple and ride him as he stands like some gazaelle
    Standing on her mate.
    A lad whom all can see girt with sword and belt
    Not like your whore who has to go veiled.
    Make for smooth-faced boys and do your very best to
    Mount them, for women are the mounts of devils!

    Perfumed Garden was written by a Muslim scholar and proves that homosexuality has always existed – the ancient Greeks were known homosexuals and celebrated it. Even animals exhibit homosexual behavior which proves that it is not a learnt behavior but is as *normal* as heterosexuality. There is a species of bat that have both genders exhibiting greater homosexual bonding and stronger relationships. Now obviously we can go into a theological debate and can argue till the cows come home that these bats are doing something haraam but we have to accept that they were created like that by Allah and no one else. I think homophobia exists because humans are the only members of the animal kingdom that think that anyone who is different from them is below them. Gays are paying the price for our species evolution 😦

    • Thank you, Coolred. I loved your comments as well. Was nodding all the time (like always).

      I was just going through the comments and noticed that other people too have mentioned gay love/sex in Muslim countries.

      I also read today that homosexuality was once placed on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual by the WEST! It was perfectly normal for the Arab or Eastern Muslim but a psychological disorder by the homophobic Western people so like Ayah mentions above, perhaps homophobia has its real roots in the West 😀

      • Great comment Achelois! I knew that homosexuality was widespread and almost accepted during the reigns of several caliphs but I didn’t know it was still the case in so many Arab places today. Interesting!

    • I didn’t know that! I also didn’t know about homosexuality been prevalent in the Abbasid period until I read it on the wiki link provided by Bahlool.

      In fact the link points out that “Beyond that, despite the ban on homosexuality by mainstream Islam, homosexual practise was generally tolerated, though thinly veiled, in many parts of the Arab/Muslim world, until early modern times, when the emergence of a Westernized elite caused it to be frowned upon.”

      Interesting discussion, Sara. Thank you!

      • I went to an amazing lecture earlier this year called Love and Sex in the Ottoman Period. The lecturer proved how prevalent homosexuality was and how accepted it was, which is extremely clear from the poetry of that time, esp. the court poetry.
        Some books on the subject:
        “Before homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World” Khaled el-Rouayheb.
        “Producing desire” Dror Zeevi.
        “Women with mustaches and men without beards” Afsaneh Najmabadi.

  52. Achelois…far as I can see its still very widespread in the Arab world…and maybe frowned upon openly, as so many things in the Arab/Muslim world are, but completely accepted when its kept “under the carpet”.

    I swear there is sooooo freaking much going on under the carpet in the Arab/Muslim world..its a wonder anyone can walk across a floor without tripping and falling. 🙂

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